tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post1014432105492111641..comments2024-03-10T01:57:07.008-05:00Comments on what I meant to say: do people hate me?dave workmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13068663095945094946noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-59991392329941952002011-12-28T00:10:28.244-05:002011-12-28T00:10:28.244-05:00Late to the game here but I wanted to respond to b...Late to the game here but I wanted to respond to both Dave and "Nobody".<br />It probably won't feel good to hear this but I am a former Christian and a former VCC-er. Rest assured, it's not a reflection on Vineyard or its ministers that I have left the faith, it was a long time coming. What I want to say to Dave is pretty much what Ali said in her first paragraph, that it typically wasn't the "outsiders" or the "worldly" who hated the Christians. When those outside the faith showed hatred it was because the generosity and compassion of the Christians reflected poorly on them. A selfish hate, I guess. So, while I think this is probably not where you were headed with these thoughts I would caution you against being hated for the sake of being hated! Sadly, there are many Christians out there today who think they are <i>supposed</i> to be hated and persecuted and so they drum up hatred by being pushy and judgmental. It's really very backward.<br />To Nobody, I hadn't heard that the Vineyard had stopped doing small works (my husband still attends). Was this an actual shift in the practices or just sort of a change that you sensed? Small things are fun, and I'm sure there is some benefit and it's an easy, non-committal way to affect change. However, having been the recipient of these small works a few times now I have to say, it starts to feel gimmicky. Paying for my donuts is great and that free bottle of water is really nice but you know what's really amazing? My sister is a social worker for Butler County Child Protective Services and guess where they send people when they don't have the resources to help them? Yep, the Healing Center. It's funny that the "family" I left can still make me so proud but it does. When I run across people from all over the Greater Cincinnati area and they KNOW that the Healing Center is the place to go, it just feels like somebody finally GOT IT. THIS is what Jesus wanted people to do! FEED, CLOTHE, EDUCATE, and LOVE the people around them. If Christians still want to help in small ways, why aren't they doing it? Or are they just doing their small works under a big umbrella (HC) where they're not necessarily seen? (Which, arguably, may be better anyway)<br />The church is certainly still hated today. The difference is that it is hated because it's lost sight of its purpose and not because it is stepping up like we saw in the Bible, with a form of compassion and generosity that naturally puts others to shame.Just Vegashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09851077598314983920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-19264640631828181572011-12-20T02:50:23.029-05:002011-12-20T02:50:23.029-05:00I recall the people that hated Jesus were the reli...I recall the people that hated Jesus were the religious and NOT the atheists/agnostics/prostitutes/thieves. It was the religious who crucified Jesus, not the non-believers and I believe Vineyards all over ARE hated by the religious. You can read about them in various Christian magazines, so rest assured, you are hated ;-)<br /><br />BUT I want to address something more important b/c honestly, I could care of less who hates or loves me. We have an audience of ONE and it's taken me a long time to get to this place, but I'm now pretty comfortable just knowing that He's leading me as I follow. It's His kindness that leads them to repentance. <br /><br />My desire is for prophetic evangelism to lead the Church in out witnessing endeavors. It's my desire to be sitting at the table of a restaurant with another friend who walks in the prophetic (as we're all prophetic, but too many of us choose not to walk in it as in putting it into action) and ask the Lord what He thinks about the server or what the server's giftings/talents are...lately, I've found that this is the way God wants me to "do" outreach. It's the little things that matter and most often, a kind word spoken to say, "Hey, God just really wants you back" to a backslidden former believer goes much further than a bottle of water that I just randomly hand out just to "show God's love in a practical way". I mean, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but it sure doesn't address the issue, the issue that God wants to use me to bring as many people as possible to Him for the first time or back to Him. I need to be willing to say more than just a few words.<br /><br />In addition, there have been truths spoken over people too...like a few weeks ago, I went to a wedding in Wisconsin, but upon our return, God had my friends and I stop at a gas station in Iowa. Well, He wouldn't let us leave without speaking to the cashier. Her name was Betty and I just asked her how her night was going. She talked about how dead it had been, but said that her book was keeping her company. I simply asked, "Oh yeah? Whatcha readin'?" And she told me that it was a book on paranormal activity. BOOM! That was it. I knew at that moment why God wanted me to talk with her. Did I condemn her to hell? No. I spoke life over her. I told her of a scary incident I had when I was in my teens when I called a psychic and was almost date raped due to her "advice". Well, the cashier was very interested and I got the opportunity to speak Jesus' love over her when I said, "I bless you with knowing that your heart is the wellspring of life, but I'm learning more and more that that life has to be protected as we protect the portals, our eyes and ears, that will either bring death or life to that wellspring." She just looked at me. Oh, and the Holy Spirit also asked me to ask her if she was a mom and she was. Then, low and behold, there was a little book called "God's Promises for Moms" just under the counter where I was standing along with little Jesus figurines. It was soooo cool. I simply turned it over and had her scan the barcode. Then, I handed it to her, reached across and touched her hand and said, "I bless you with knowing God's heart for your heart. These are His TRUE promises for you, for WHO He says you are as 'Daughter of the Most High' (b/c she said she was a Christian). He has great joy over you and He wants you to know Him personally." That was it and we left as customers were entering the store. It was awesome though to watch her hardened heart soften before our very eyes. And when I reached across the counter to touch her, her eyes softened and I could tell she was feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit and the love of Jesus just embracing her. Yeah, so prophetic evangelism...God's pouring out His Spirit in the end-times and we're seeing it, it's Joel 2:28-29 and it's AWESOME!Alinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-76934876258328073252011-12-16T15:42:54.238-05:002011-12-16T15:42:54.238-05:00This may be a bit long for some, but it adds a LOT...This may be a bit long for some, but it adds a LOT of substance to this discussion. The transcript of a speech given by the president of Asbury Theological Seminary:<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2011/09/25/the-clarion-call-to-watered-down-evangelicalism/<br /><br />Dave, what are your thoughts on this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-2277627168966291952011-12-15T21:06:40.165-05:002011-12-15T21:06:40.165-05:00I have attended VCC .... Oops.... Vineyard Cincinn...I have attended VCC .... Oops.... Vineyard Cincinnati for 11 years..... While I was not able to attend many of the out reaches that "nobody" refers to - I remember them well - the stories of God showing up were awesome! I have never helped with the big events - except SOS - I think we could use a balance of both. While we reach tons of special needs adults and their families - they are not the only people needing a touch from the people of God!!!!! Going back to some of our outreach past would be a good thing! Just my opinion!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-29963166027197730372011-12-14T23:04:52.298-05:002011-12-14T23:04:52.298-05:00Oops... I meant to say "THAT God loves me.&qu...Oops... I meant to say "THAT God loves me."Nobody Againnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-43029540087601762732011-12-14T22:33:29.870-05:002011-12-14T22:33:29.870-05:00In other words, "small things" is dead. ...In other words, "small things" is dead. <br /><br />But I should note that I did say that I love those events and see the purpose in them. I serve at all of them. <br /><br />But again... If I was the same nonbeliever that I was in high school, I would end up in hell because nobody is going out to tell people like me thy God loves them. <br /><br />... And it's hard to do outreach alone when you're not insanely extroverted.Nobody Importantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-88625218246849770942011-12-14T12:23:07.494-05:002011-12-14T12:23:07.494-05:00I agree with all of you on some level, except for ...I agree with all of you on some level, except for a few comments left by 'nobody' : ) <br />I can only speak to some of the "bigger" events, as I've been involved in a large chunk of them at some point. Legistically and financially, it makes sense to have 70+ kids with special needs inside the building that can accomidate them. Same with 1,500 adults with special needs for a Prom. And while the events themselves may be on the larger scale, the ripples effects are far-reaching, waaaay beyond the "four walls" of vcc. I'd say 80-90% of the families that took advantage of the Breathe Respites did not attend VCC. They were friends of friends, members of other churches, parents who had been told by their therapists and doctors... Because of events like Prom and Breathe, there is now "the Circle", a place where adults with disabilities can come and learn about Jesus in an environment that's comfortable for them. Because The Prom, I found my "calling" per say, and now I work with the attendees of The Prom. Because of SOS, a bunch of kids and adults learned to listen and recognize God's voice better. And because of the movies VCC's been involved in, I've personally seen cast and crew members search after a God and life they did not know existed. So while there are some big events, sometimes they have even bigger results. <br />And honestly, sometimes city's don't let you pass out water anymore. (I think Forest Park doesn't). Some stuff has just evolved over the years, and as people, we've got to conform to that. Find other outreaches. And honestly, if that's what you're passionate about, just go do it. What's holding you back? : )<br />as a side note, I think it's important that I state that I've had major issues with "large events" in the past. I didn't see the purpose, thought they were stupid and a ginormous waste of dough. Sometimes I still do, but I've also been able to see the effects of some of the others. So sometimes I go back and forth...<br />Dave - um, restraining order???workinprogresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15247656498507750669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-47996577151476244282011-12-14T12:03:10.938-05:002011-12-14T12:03:10.938-05:00God bless you for asking such a question of yourse...God bless you for asking such a question of yourself. We would all do well to do likewise. My words are written in sincere love…<br /><br />Seeker-sensitive churches have made it fashionable to criticize and belittle the church. (“We’re not your parent’s church; come drink coffee, dress casually, listen to hip music and be entertained by the sermon because we’re a COOL church.”) Perhaps the world doesn’t hate you because you are inadvertently doing its job of criticizing the church? <br /><br />Steve Sjogren noted that many mega-church attendees are there because they prefer to attend a more-hip church. Didn’t Bill Hybels realize a couple years ago that his seeker-sensitive church did a reasonable job of attracting attendees and adherents, but a poor job of making disciples? David Platt wrote in his book, "Radical", that it isn’t that hard to grow a church in our country. All one needs is a comfortable auditorium, a hot band and a captivating speaker and the crowds will come. <br /><br />The pendulum is swinging the other direction; the era of the seeker-friendly church has passed. Start making more disciples (instead of attendees) in 2012 and you might find yourself more hated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-22667450495623007782011-12-13T18:54:50.308-05:002011-12-13T18:54:50.308-05:00I think that we (The Vineyard) used to be hated by...I think that we (The Vineyard) used to be hated by the right people. I don't think we are hated anymore because most of our OUTreach takes place inside the four walls of the church. (Not that I don't like Prom or Breathe or the Healing Center- I love them all and see their purpose!!!) It seems like we only leave the building during SOS and on Christmas eve now, though!<br /><br />We have SMALL things done with great love etched on the building, but we keep doing bigger and bigger things and in those giant events slinging fewer seeds, reaching fewer kinds of people.<br /><br />That old shirt that says "The Church has left the building" does not describe us anymore. Except for the Good Sam team and the LA La Vina team. They rock. But not everyone is good at those very relational outreaches. Some of us were good at cleaning bathrooms and running around in traffic. Some of us miss sharing and hearing those stories of the times when God could just show up and do anything! I miss that.<br /><br />Bring back OUTreach and then we will start getting hated more. I was brought to VCC and brought to Christ through a tiny trivial object handed to me by some guy who chased me down to say "God loves you" to me. If I was a nonbeliever now, in our era of no OUTreach, I would be going to hell. <br /><br />Sorry if this sounds mean or rude, I am not trying to be rude... and I could be wrong. I haven't been to church in ages so maybe I have missed it. <br /><br />Oh and I know that the corporate line is that small groups are supposed to do outreach on their own and some of them do... but it isn't the same. We used to be all about outreach. Now I (personally) am not sure what we are about.<br /><br />At least the band is still awesome.Nobody Importantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-30822098334675876882011-12-13T14:10:20.774-05:002011-12-13T14:10:20.774-05:00In my own experience, people will usually smile an...In my own experience, people will usually smile and shake your hand while thinking something else.<br /><br />I remember this past Alpha, one of the speakers mentioned about people wearing masks. We all wear some sort of mask(s). We smile when we would rather not. We laugh when all we want to do is cry. We put on a show for others. Part of that show is doing a smile routine and saying some fluff to someone you don't agree with or don't like. That is a dangerous place to be in. It's fake, it's a Pharisee. Oh God, I'm so thankful that I'm not like this person beside me, I tithe the 10%, I fast every week. I'm awesome.<br /><br />If you don't feel the sting of the world, post some things to Reddit in the Christian section. People tend to take their masks off on the internet, besides...who needs a mask on the internet? No one sees your face.<br /><br />Just my two cents. Keep up the good work.Bryanhttp://www.yahwehtoday.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-80832457351961352512011-12-13T08:57:29.730-05:002011-12-13T08:57:29.730-05:00I'm suspicious you are more hated than you rea...I'm suspicious you are more hated than you realize, Dave. No, wait, that came out wrong. <br /><br />I think the reflection you see may be the "smile and let's get out of here" reaction that has taken over the "in your face, I want my money back for the time I've spent here" mask that was our recent post-modernism. Could the world be so aggressive that people are recoiling from the conflict? You have to pause after watching the tv and seeing parents microwaving their children and gangs creatively luring people into their violence. (an aside here- it is that same reaction that may be helping people find the edge of How long can I stay this path by myself?) <br /><br />I wouldn't make the metric of your, oh let's say, controversial statements, oh heck maybe Christian worldview the level of aggression of others. Perhaps they are more water-downed than you? A good check for the message is to check (oh here I go- I'm a seminary student now-) your message via the Word.(See I go to a conservative seminary at that.) I do believe (and it hasn't been beaten in or out of me at this point in my education) that God does provide enough radical ideas that we have yet to implement in one book. <br />So good news and bad news: you're probably hated and you just don't know it!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35583920.post-59165764365552899302011-12-13T00:16:34.839-05:002011-12-13T00:16:34.839-05:00Don't you think it's more difficult for mo...Don't you think it's more difficult for modern-day church pastors because you're almost always around Christians? It's one of the only jobs in which every co-worker shares your faith. I assume a high percentage of church attendees are Christian (or at least non-Christians seeking out a Christian message).<br /><br />One of the most hated Christians on the planet right now is Tim Tebow. But that's because everyone knows him. I doubt his message is more "offensive" than someone like Bill Hybels, but who the heck knows who Bill Hybels is other than Christians (and Chicago tanning bed owners)?<br /><br />Maybe that's your point: There are two reasons for a lack of "hate." (1) A watered-down message, which is probably my problem (because I want non-Christians to think I'm cool) or (2) lack of platform, which probably happens to lots of church workers.<br /><br />Of course, the Westboro Baptist folks are pretty hated too, and I'm not sure that's going to work out very well for them with the Big Guy.<br /><br />Merry Christmas, Dave!Steve Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769347413943816451noreply@blogger.com